Atheism is, essentially, a negative position. It is not believing in a god or actively believing there is no God or choosing to not exercise any belief or non-belief concerning God, etc. Whichever flavor is given to atheism, it is a negative position.
In discussions with atheists, I don’t hear any evidence for the validity of atheism. There are no “proofs” that God does not exist in atheist circles, at least, none that I have heard, especially since you can’t prove a negative regarding the existence of God. Of course, that isn’t to say that atheists haven’t attempted to offer some proofs that God does not exist. But their attempted proofs are invariably insufficient. After all, how do you prove there is no God in the universe? How do you prove that in all places and all times there is no God? You can’t. Besides, if there was proof of God’s non-existence, then atheists would be continually using it. But we don’t hear of any such commonly held proof supporting atheism or denying the existence of God. The atheist position is very difficult, if not impossible, to prove since it is an attempt to prove a negative. Therefore, since there are no proofs for atheism’s truth and there are no proofs that there is no God, the atheist must hold his position by faith.
Faith, however, is not something atheists like to claim as the basis of adhering to atheism. Therefore, atheists must go on the attack and negate any evidences presented for God’s existence in order to give intellectual credence to their position. If they can create an evidential vacuum in which no theistic argument can survive, their position can be seen as more intellectually viable. It is in the negation of theistic proofs and evidences that atheism brings its self-justification to self-proclaimed life.
There is, however, only one way that atheism is intellectually defensible and that is in the abstract realm of simple possibility. In other words, the atheist would have to propose that it may be possible that there is no God. But stating that something is possible doesn’t mean that it is a reality or that it is wise to adopt the position. If I said that it is possible that there is an ice cream factory on Jupiter, does that make it intellectually defensible or a position worth adopting merely because it is a possibility? Not at all. Simply claiming a possibility based on nothing more than it being a possible option–no matter how remote–is not sufficient grounds for atheists to claim viability in their atheism. They must come up with more than “It is possible,” or “There is no evidence for God,” otherwise, there really must be an ice cream factory on Jupiter, and the atheist should step up on the band wagon and start defending the position that Jupiterian ice cream exists.
At least we Christians have evidences for God’s existence, such as fulfilled Biblical prophecy, Jesus’ resurrection, the Transcendental Argument, the entropy problem, etc.
There is another problem for atheists. Refuting evidences for the existence of God does not prove atheism true anymore than refuting an eyewitness testimony of a marriage denies the reality of the marriage. Since atheism cannot be proven and since disproving evidences for God does not prove there is no God, atheists have a position that is intellectually indefensible. At best, atheists can only say there are no convincing evidences for God that have been presented so far. They cannot say there are no evidences for God because the atheist cannot know all evidences that possibly exist in the world. At best, the atheist can only say that the evidence presented so far has been insufficient. This logically means that there could be evidences presented in the future that will suffice. The atheist must acknowledge that there may indeed be a proof that has been undiscovered and that the existence of God is possible. This would make the atheist more of an agnostic since at best the atheist can only be skeptical of God’s existence.
This is why atheists need to attack Christianity. It is because Christianity makes very high claims concerning God’s existence, which challenges their atheism and pokes holes in their vacuum. They like the vacuum. They like having the universe with only one god in it: themselves.
Self-proclaiming atheists tend to be wounded and they act out in a sort of subdued or passive-aggressive way
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Welcome, Francis;
Yes, you are correctly stating their acts and actions.
I wish to thank you for your comments, they are greatly appreciated.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you and yours.
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Thank you.
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You are quite welcome, Francis.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you.
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Let’s say we find a person who has never heard of or conceptualised of a God. You then offer to them the “proofs” and evidence in support of a God (and, more specifically, the Christian God) and they simply say back to you ‘that doesn’t seem convincing at all’.
What is that person?
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Allallt,
Primarily your question, or scenario, is unrealistic. For we both know that proving, or disproving, the existence of God is impossible and; we are both incapable of knowing whether, or not, that will change in the future. Further, I believe we would both be hard pressed to find a person “who has never heard of or has a conceptualization of (a) god”.
I would instead tell him/her about our (Christian) God, what He desires for us and how we can have life and have it more abundantly if we only accept, through Faith, His Son as their Lord and Savior. I would explain to them about sin and how sin separates us from this loving God and how His Son, Jesus Christ, paid the ultimate price to heal that separation….
And if they came back with “that doesn’t seem convincing at all” I would have to reiterate that I am unable to convince you by proof or evidence of the existence of God, and it is not my intension, but only of what He desires for you and how to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ. So, “what is that person?” That person is more knowledgeable than previously.
Thank you for your question and comment. Both are greatly appreciated.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you and yours.
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Allallt said evidence not proof.
Does indoctrination dull your cognitive functions to the point where words and their meaning blur for you?
Th Christian god is Yahweh which as has been explained to you, was a Canaanite deity the Israelites adopted.
A great many people have been confronted with this erroneous belief by evangelical christians
and almost every single one has suffered as a result.
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Actually he said both.. “proofs and evidence” Thanks for your contribution.
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Yes, his ”Proof” was in inverted commas, as is mine.
So, what evidence do you have?
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Boy you can’t read a lick. Can you? And, grammatically, you’re illiterate as all get out.
In case you didn’t know, he was presenting a hypothetical. Nothing more. I believe I made that clear.
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Yes, I understood that perfectly, thank you.
But your religion does not work on ”supposedly”, as has been evidenced in the manner in which it has been proselytized across the globe.
So, what evidence do you have?
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I have already answered the question. Re-read all of my comments and you will find your answer(s). By the way, you still haven’t responded to the statements you made a while ago, nor provided an explanation to the questions imposed to you then….. May I have that response and answer, please?
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Sure. Sorry I missed them. Can you remind me of which particular statements?
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If you recall, we were discussing “atheism” as a “religion” and the United States Supreme Court declaring it so [as with other lower courts] and other observations. All of that was in response to several statements of which you made. They are as follows: [1]: “all religions are equally ridiculous and equally disgusting,” and; [2]: “built upon lies and superstition and promoted by ignorant delusional people.”
My question was merely this: “How is atheism, as a religion, different than say, Christianity, Hindu, Islam or Judaism?” I posed this question to you in response to your two statements of which were aforementioned: “all religions are equally ridiculous and equally disgusting” and “built upon lies and superstition and promoted by ignorant delusional people.”
Since it is established that “atheism is a religion” then this question of “”How is atheism, as a religion being equally ridiculous and equally disgusting, when all religions, including atheism, are built upon lies and superstition and promoted by ignorant delusional people different than say, Christianity, Hindu, Islam or Judaism?”. Based upon your comments it is a reasonable question.
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If you recall, a) I apologised and, b) the judgment referenced was for the case regarding the right of assembly for atheist prisoners if I am not mistaken and the term religion was applied.
as it was defined for legal purposes.
My comment ( which I am now forced to amend) specifically refers to religions that include all of the above recognised religions that worship a deity.
Which of course would exclude atheism.
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I believe what you apologized for was [a] telling me there were no court cases defining atheism as a religion, and; [b] calling me a liar.
“Atheism is [the inmate’s] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being,” the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said. The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described “secular humanism” as a religion.
I am afraid you can not amend your statement at this time, Arkenaten. Your comment, as properly shown, stated “all religions” [regardless of having a deity or not,] and; in light of the courts’ ruling “a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being.” So, I reiterate, “how is your religion (atheism) different from all other religions?” Or, more appropriately qualify your two statements: [1]: “all religions are equally ridiculous and equally disgusting,” and; [2]: “built upon lies and superstition and promoted by ignorant delusional people.”
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From Wiki.
My comment stands
It has occasionally been argued that in Torcaso v. Watkins the Supreme Court “found” secular humanism to be a religion. This assertion is based on a reference, by Justice Black in footnote number 11 of the Court’s finding, to court cases where organized groups of self-identified humanists, or ethicists, meeting on a regular basis to share and celebrate their beliefs, have been granted religious-based tax exemptions.[4][5]
Justice Black’s use of the term “secular humanism” in his footnote has been seized upon by some religious groups, such as those supporting causes such as teaching creationism in schools, as a “finding” that any secular or science-based activity is, in fact, religion.[6]
What a rather childish thing to say. Of course I can amend my statement as I was unaware of this ( rather silly) US ruling.
As Christians are all for context, it would have been obvious to any intelligent person reading my original comment that was , of course , referring to religions that genuflected to a supernatural deity, Yahweh, Allah etc.
Thus, as atheism does not worship any deity it is excluded.
It matters not if your nose is now out of joint and you wish to have a hissy fit.
Perhaps if you can find the supernatural deity atheists worship then maybe I will once again, apologise and reconsider.
Until then … ‘Suck it up’ as they say in the classics
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I think that is so funny. Doesn’t atheists worship “self?” and “Science? ”
Just remember, it’s okay to amend it – just be sure to include atheism in your response as a religion…….
I guess, after all your rhetoric on history and education, you were unaware of this following paragraph on Human Secularism.
John Dewey described Humanism as our “common faith.” Julian Huxley called it “Religion without Revelation.” The first Humanist Manifesto spoke openly of Humanism as a religion. Many other Humanists could be cited who have acknowledged that Humanism is a religion. In fact, claiming that Humanism was “the new religion” was trendy for at least 100 years, perhaps beginning in 1875 with the publication of The Religion of Humanity by Octavius Brooks Frothingham (1822-1895), son of the distinguished Unitarian clergyman, Nathaniel Langdon Frothingham (1793-1870), pastor of the First Unitarian Church of Boston, 1815-1850. In the 1950’s, Humanists sought and obtained tax-exempt status as religious organizations. Even the Supreme Court of the United States spoke in 1961 of Secular Humanism as a religion. It was a struggle to get atheism accepted as a religion, but it happened. From 1962-1980 this was not a controversial issue.
But then Christians began to challenge the “establishment of religion” which Secular Humanism in public schools represented. They used the same tactic Atheists had used to challenge prayer and Bible reading under the “Establishment Clause” of the First Amendment. Now the ACLU is involved. Now the question is controversial. Now Secular Humanists have completely reversed their strategy, and claim that Humanism is not at all religious, but is “scientific.”
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This is so typical of you, Arkenaten; avoiding the question and answer periods with outlandish and superficial meaningless rhetoric all designed to cover up the fact you can not, or are unwilling, to answer my question on religion and how atheism is different than other forms of religion.
Wow ! Bill Maher huh? You really pulled out the big guns there.
I take it then you’re walking away from answering the question I presented earlier? It appears so from this hodge-podge of comments designed to try and save face….. Nice attempt though.
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Okay.
The only difference between me and the person in the hypothetical scenario is that I have heard of God. And I find all the arguments for God entirely unconvincing.
Like I (try to) do for all claims I find unconvincing, I simply don’t accept the claim; I do not believe in God.
Am I an atheist?
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allallt;
I believe you have, by your own scenario, defined yourself and are without need of me to further define. From your comment: “And I find all the arguments for God entirely unconvincing” you have chosen to both define yourself and to have reached specific findings. Both of which were a choice.
Once again, thank you for your comments. They are appreciated.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, may He bless and keep you.
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Why are you dodging this? I’m trying clarify the definition of atheism because I think you’ve got it very wrong.
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allallt;
What on earth can I be dodging? Well if you’re trying to clarify something because you believe that I have it wrong; then come on with it. You’re holding up the game not me.
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My point is that I am unconvinced of arguments for a God, and that describes my stance as an atheist.
I don’t hold to the claims that no Gods exist. I simply don’t hold to the claim that a God does exist. I lack a belief in the claims of a generic God. (If you get into specific Gods there ends up being a massive discussion to see if we can iron out perceived paradoxes etc etc, but that’s a aside for now).
With that in mind, there is no onus on me to demonstrate a God doesn’t exist. All I do is level a degree of scepticism at the claims of a God that I do for other claims.
With that definition of atheism, it’s perfectly viable.
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allallt;
It would seem, from your descriptive wording, you might be more agnostic than true atheistic.
I say this due to you stating “I am unconvinced of [by] arguments for a God.”. This leaves us room to perceive you have doubt as to whether there is an existence of a God or gods. Or whether there still may remain room for His existence. Or, boiled down “there may still be an argument which may convince me yet.”
From what you have said, allallt, it seems more logical that you are “not” atheist, but rather, “are agnostic.”
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But I don’t believe in a God. I’m not convinced, so I don’t believe. That’s the definition of atheism.
I am also agnostic; I don’t know. But, it almost follows to say ‘therefore I don’t believe’.
“A-” to be without “-theism” belief in a God or Gods.
Atheism may include the stance that there are actually no Gods. But it’s not limited to that.
Yes, I may be convinced at a later date. But, you may be convinced of another religion or of atheism at a later date. That’s not the definition of agnosticism.
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Allow me to give you a little help here.
“Agnosticism is not about belief in god but about knowledge — it was coined originally to describe the position of a person who could not claim to know for sure if any gods exist or not.” I believe that is where you are, allallt.
“But, it almost follows to say ‘therefore I don’t believe’ is not a true statement because as agnostic it’s about knowledge and not belief.
Please do not try and mix the two different systems together by adding “it seems to follow …….. ” I think you try and blend the two systems into one which will cover you best. If anything, I believe, you are agnostic.
My recommendation to you? Settle for agnostic for the time being….. seek more information and knowledge so you are better armed to make a better, more informed, decision on who you are and where you stand. And always keep an open mind to truths…… or what can be truths in your life.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you and yours.
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Seek more information and knowledge, until what point? What is insufficient about the writing on my blog?
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allallt;
Seek more information and knowledge, until what point? Until you are assured, without doubt, of whom you are (in Christ) and as a person.
What is insufficient about the writing on my blog? I have not commented on your blog. I have visited your blog site but have not commented either way on it’s idea or quality. People are free to make whatever decisions they choose in life. They are free to choose what they will, or will not, believe or trust. I can tell you my worldview on Christianity and it will be viewed differently by as many people as there are with opinions generally.
Understanding and accepting God is by faith. It is also a very real and personal experience of which differs from individual to individual. And, much of it depends upon the study time in the Word on spends reading and studying, allallt. A relationship with God comes from study of His word, spending time in Prayer and having faith in what Christ has done. Once you have passed those hurdles you are well on your way to experiencing God and building a relationship with God.
I do wish you well, allallt and May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you and yours.
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Ooooooookay…
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I am a live and let live agnostic; which means I’m not convinced there is a God. Just because I’m not convinced doesn’t mean that there are not many who are convinced.
Proof is a tricky concept its difficult to prove almost anything beyond doubt. We may attack another human being because of their actions but their beliefs are a personel matter. I hear you object and say we act according to our beliefs. This is often not true we may act according to our desires, or what we are told or for maximum personel gain.
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Hello, kaptonok and welcome to altruistico;
Proof beyond doubt is near impossible. This is why the legal profession use the standard of “proof beyond a reasonable doubt.” It is well settled that proof, by any standard, is impossible when it relates to the “proof, or disproof, of the existence of God or gods.” And, based upon the fact no one is capable of knowing the future, then we are unable to say with any clarity whether, or not, such evidence either way will emerge at some later time. Leaving us with little more than faith either way.
I have to disagree with your comment “We may attack another human being because of their actions but their beliefs are a personel [personal] matter.” If, of course, you mean that attacks on one’s beliefs being personal are isolated from attacks. For they are not. Evidence of that rests in atheists attacks on Christendom and the individuals who hold Christian worldviews. I would be mistaken, if not wrong, were I to say this is one sided; for it is not. There are those who profess to be Christian who are just as abusive with their words towards atheists. This may be attributed to “human nature” but it is not an attribute of Christianity or Christendom.
In most cases I believe it true that people do act upon their belief(s). If I believe chocolate pudding is more flavorful or appealing than butterscotch and if I have done a side by side comparative testing of both then I can truthfully say “that is my belief.” Later, if given a choice between butterscotch or chocolate I will “act” upon my belief in chocolate and reach for it virtually every time.
Yes, as you say, “we may act according to our desires, or what we are told or for maximum personel [personal] gain.” But first we must “believe” that our desires, or aspirations, are achievable before we will or can (sanely) act upon them. For truly no one is going to “act upon” something they fail to believe in.
I wish to thank you for your thoughts and comments. They are greatly appreciated.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you and yours.
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First a big thanks for correcting my spelling. I had no higher education but have had some self help since retiring. I’m 74 now living in England on the south coast.
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Well, Kaptonok, you are quite welcome. Your spelling was quite good over all. Everyone misspells a word now and then and there is no shame in doing so.
I would never have known you were 74. God bless you. I am 65 going on 66 in May of this year. I still feel I have a great deal to contribute; as I know you must feel the same.
It is a pleasure to meet you, Kaptonok. I hope you will return with your comments and questions soon and, God bless and keep you always, my friend.
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You mention atheist attacks on.Christendom and visa versa.
People get heated and personal but it is wrong. Ideas can be attacked but not people.
I have found outstanding people of alsorts of beliefs, it is the inner person that matters.
Excuse my bungling but I am working on an old phone given to me by my daughter who is in the fast lane.
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Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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I have explained my position regarding religion and amended my initial response to only include those religions that worship a supernatural deity.
Atheism ( for those that consider it a religion) is not included.
I have now answered your question.
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What kind of proof would you require from the atheist?
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Hessian;
Forgive me for not responding sooner to you question here.
I am afraid I require no proof (or evidence) from atheism. I know that neither side can provide absolute proof for, or against, God. Allow me to reiterate; “at least not at this time in our lives. Perhaps, if all is true, then the Rapture might bring such truth to light – but even then there will be so many skeptics and people trying, with desperation, to explain it away….
Just because something can’t be reached today doesn’t mean it’s not obtainable tomorrow…. or the next day or the day after….. Truth will always reveal itself.
I thank you once again for your question. It is greatly appreciated.
Now may the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you always.
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Are you saying that nothing would convince you that God doesn’t exist? (Again, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so correct me if I’m wrong)
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Hessian;
Are you saying that nothing would convince you that God doesn’t exist? Yes !!!
Don’t you think that were there evidence denouncing the existence of God that atheists, or others, would have brought it by now? People have had over 2,000 years to prove Christ didn’t exist; and, to disprove He was the incarnate God. All have failed to do that.
Allow me to ask one final question [a hypothetical if you’d like]. When the Antichrist appears will you believe there is a god? Or, will you too be deceived?
Thank you once again, Hessian, for your questions and comments. They are appreciated.
May God bless and keep you.
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I’m sorry, but I don’t really understand your view. Isn’t it problematic to refuse to acknowledge counter-arguments? Can you explain why your mind can’t be changed? (I don’t want to change your mind, I’m just curious).
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Hessian;
No, I see nothing “constituting or presenting a problem or difficulty,” if that is what you mean by problematic, in refusing to acknowledge counter-arguments. Especially when they offer no sizable contribution, or relationship with, the theme or conversation. Nor do I find it problematic when “refusing counter-arguments when they are arbitrary or capricious. Nor is it problematic when a commentator uses abusive, offensive or derogatory remarks against others. And, I could probably go on but I believe you get the drift of my thoughts and rationale on the subject.
My mind can be changed, and probably will, given time, on many subjects. But Christianity and my belief and faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will not be one of them.
Thank you, Hessian, for your comments and questions. They are always welcome.
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Uh more like the other way….where is your proof of god and his existence…there is none! All you go back to is because the bible says so….stupid! Just because someone/something told you it is true you believe it. That is what is wrong with the world…believe anything they hear and see. You can’t prove something doesn’t exist if it DOESN’T exist! It should be the other way….you are a believer in the shit and should be proving to a nonbeliever that what you believe is truth. Yet, there is no truth only hoaxes and ridiculous beliefs of it being truth. If I came at you and said I won a million dollars but I couldn’t show you any of the money…why would you believe me that I had any money at all? Christianity uses faith. A clever way of manipulation…you must simply have faith that what I am telling you is true because I am telling you it is true. I can’t show you or prove it to you but I am telling you it is true so therefore it is true. Don’t think so. For so long I have been angry at all of the people who have taken advantage of me, but I have to say it pisses me off WAY more realizing how christianity has taken advantage of me.
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Hello, Achilles;
I am going to discount three of your four messages as, quite frankly, they mimic each other in substance. If it’s okay with you we will start from the bottom and work our way to the top.
[For so long I have been angry at all of the people who have taken advantage of me, but I have to say it pisses me off WAY more realizing how Christianity has taken advantage of me.]
There is no question, Achilles, that you have a great deal of anger. In my mind there is little doubt that you have been taken advantage of; perhaps repeatedly, and perhaps it’s been over a long period of time. It raises the question, then, of whose more responsible? Is it the persons who repeatedly take advantage or the person of whom allows the repeated offense? I pose to you, Achilles, it is the person who allows this repeated abuse by others.
Each of us, at one time or another, have been taken advantage of and have been to varying degrees. I would venture to say that the easiest targets are Christians who generally want to help and are duped by charlatans posing as Christians. These people take their kindness as weakness. As I’m sure that is the case with you. However, most people when discovering they have been duped, or otherwise taken advantage of, they put their foot down, refusing to continue with the charade. But then you are not most people and choice to treat them better than they have treated you. It is a good quality if it’s the case.
I have visited your blog and from the first moment there I sense you have isolated yourself from the world. Appearing that is how you deal with the problem. People are social creatures and isolation is both unhealthy and it’s unnatural. Sometimes it’s necessary to be away from people in order to collect our thoughts and unwind. But not total isolation as a defense. Some might read your comment and say you’re striking out. I would tell them I think you’re reaching out and that is a good thing.
You never mention, Achilles, how people and Christianity have taken advantage of you. I know a multitude of ways people take advantage of people; but, I am unclear on how a Christian World View can take advantage of anyone. There are two types of Christian. 1): those who go out of their way to help and benefit others as servants of Christ (i.e. those who bear good fruit). and, 2): those who profess (or pose as) to be Christians and who are without substance (i.e. bear no fruit). Christ is the cornerstone or substance of group one. Satan the cornerstone or substance of group two.
I assure you, Achilles, I can understand how being taken advantage of can piss you off. Equally I can assure you that “Christianity” of and by itself can not take advantage of anyone or anything. Christianity is nothing more than a descriptive word describing followers of Christ and His teachings. People hurt people. I can not fathom people in group one above taking advantage of or hurting anyone. Group two? I make no defense for. So I ask you, Achilles, to redirect your anger away from all of Christendom and place it, for now, where it rightfully belongs. I would rather you had no anger, but I am not the grieved party. Perhaps in time you can forgive those who have hurt you and you will find inner peace. I would hope you found that peace in Christ; but I understand if you’re not ready. I see a lot of Paul in you, Achilles, you simply haven’t found yourself on the Road to Damascus yet.
(If I came at you and said I won a million dollars but I couldn’t show you any of the money…why would you believe me that I had any money at all? )
If I knew you long enough to know your trustworthiness and honesty – I would need no proof beyond you saying so. For you would have given me no reason for disbelief or doubt in you or your claim. Now you may say “well you’re naïve and gullible.” If I were it would not have been about your receiving the million dollars; but, instead, your trustworthiness and honesty. So to say all Christians take advantage or are inherently bad is no more justified than saying all atheists are immoral and liars. Once creditability is established fear and disbelief begins to fade away. Bonds of understanding begin to grow and faith begins to expose itself. Faith is nothing more than believing and in this case faith in one another and what one another has to say. [for more on faith visit “What does the Bible say about Faith?”….where is your proof of god and his existence…there is none! All you go back to is because the bible says so….stupid! Just because someone/something told you it is true you believe it. That is what is wrong with the world…believe anything they hear and see. You can’t prove something doesn’t exist if it DOESN’T exist!
I agree with your last line: “You can’t prove something doesn’t exist if it DOESN’T exist!” But isn’t that an argument for an atheist? How does an atheist prove God “doesn’t” exist when atheists don’t believe he exists in the first place? Your statement makes your argument mute. You could counter and say “you can’t prove He does exist even though you believe He does.” And, you would be right. Unless, of course, you consider the personal relationship I have with Christ and the personal relationships of all true believers with Christ. If you consider the lives of all Christians before they received Christ, whose lives were much like yours now, and their lives after receiving Christ the evidence of God existence is overwhelming. A person who has never experienced that can not understand this or honestly dispute it.
Achilles, have you ever heard the ole adage of “the proof is in the pudding?” Well, the proof of God’s existence is in the experience Christians have with Christ. You see it’s not what we have heard or seen or because the Bible says so – it’s the true and existing personal experience and relationship we share with Christ which makes up our belief in His existence. And until you reach a point where you can’t go on anymore, as you are, will you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and know the truth of his existence. The road to Damascus awaits you, Achilles.
I wish to thank you, Achilles, for your comments and questions. They are greatly appreciated.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you and yours.
Yours in Christ;
Michael
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Yep you’re right, I am angry! And that is something I am working through…without god. I tried it with god and all it did was suppress things. In some situations being hurt and being taken advantage of are out of ones control. Some things were my fault and some things were not.
If god were real there would be evidence, scientific evidence. And please spare me your rebuttal for that statement, I have heard it all too many times. There is evidence for everything else but not for Christianity. I used to be one of you…defending posts like these. I have always had questions my entire life, but I disregarded them because I just didn’t even think about there not being a god. But the older I got the wiser I got. I could never make it through the entire bible. I always stopped at horrific stories like the 2 daughters screwing their dad to give him a son. Why is that in there? Why would that even be ok, and christians dismiss things like this saying it was a long time ago, the word is more modernized, or my favorite, it’s the old testament.
I do not want to put my faith in anyone who wants to test my love for him, that is not love. Love should be natural and not forced. And the funny thing, the bible mentions love is kind and freewill, yet he says love him or I am going to hell. Wow, that is forced love. And I am supposed to be loving and accepting of everyone else…that got me (word omitted: f*****) up and (word omitted: f*****) over living by those ridiculous standards.
God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son and right before he was about to do it god said psych! Uh, if a human did something like that we would call it abuse and psychotic. But because it is in this bible we should be ok with it. Ha! Would you sacrifice your son if god told you to?
There are so many contradictions in the bible! Read the Skeptics Annotated Bible and watch the YouTube channel darkmatter2525.
Most pick and choose through the bible, writing relatable scriptures on note pads, or in emails and jumping over the questionable ones. I guarantee the scripture about the daughters screwing their dad isn’t one you send for encouragement or rebuttal.
Think about it, why do you believe? Were you born into it or convinced? Most believe something because they are told to, without researching. The whole faith thing is the key to the conman’s spiel.
My experience with religious people have been good and bad, but what I see more is a bunch of hypocrites. Everyone acts one way in church and a completely opposite in the rest of their lives.
Think about how much of your very short life you spend for this fictional character. You go to church, Sunday, maybe Wednesday and Sunday. You are supposed to volunteer at least once a week. You are expected to give your money. You devote your time and life to something because someone told you to…even if you made the choice as an adult to believe in god, you believe because someone told you about him.
Another thing I learned by going to church…many churches, and working at a christian private school is religious people are the most fake people I have ever known or come in contact with. They hide behind a veil because they are afraid to be anything less than pleasing to a fictional character. They are the most judgmental and contradictory people. They are also some of the craziest and angriest. If things don’t go the christian’s way, and if their religion is not honored and respected they get irate. Who cares. We are all free to believe what we want. Christians want to force it down people’s throats and try to persuade their religion is the religion. Prove it. Show me evidence…without using faith or scripture. Can’t do it 🙂
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Hello, achillesquarrel;
What good has come from your anger, achillesquarrel? What good has come from your questioning God and His means and manner of doing things? It has turned you away from Him…..
There are two types of anger. (1): anger which turns us away from God, and; (2): righteous indignation or that anger of which aligns us with God.
The Apostle Paul gives clear warning to those who anger God: “Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” (Galatians 5:19-21). Jesus expressed righteous anger over the sins of the people (Mark 3:1-5; Matthew 21:12-13; Luke 19:41-44). But His anger was directed at sinful behaviors and unmistakable injustice.
However, we are also taught to be careful in our anger, that we do not sin. “Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil” (Ephesians 4:26-27). We should check our attitude as well as our motive before becoming angry with others. Paul gives us some sound advice on the appropriate approach: “Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ says the Lord. On the contrary: ‘If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.’ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good” (Romans 12:19-21).
James also gives us good instruction when it comes to righteous indignation: “Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God” (James 1:19-20). The Apostle Peter echoes this advice especially for those times when we face those antagonistic towards God and the things of God: “But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil” (1 Peter 3:14-17).
Brother do you truly understand the meaning of discernment? The word discern and its derivatives are translations of the Greek word anakrino in the New Testament. It means “to distinguish, to separate out by diligent search, to examine.” Discernment is the ability to properly discriminate or make determinations. It is related to wisdom. The Word of God itself is said to discern the thoughts and intentions of one’s heart (Hebrews 4:12).
A discerning mind demonstrates wisdom and insight that go beyond what is seen and heard. For example, God’s Word is “spiritually discerned.” To the human mind without the Spirit, the things of God are “foolishness” (1 Corinthians 2:14). The Spirit, then, gives us spiritual discernment.
King Solomon was known for his power of discernment, making many wise decisions and moral judgments (1 Kings 3:9, 11). Christians today are to be discerning as well. Paul prayed for believers “to discern what is best . . . until the day of Christ” (Philippians 1:10).
A discerning person will acknowledge the worth of God’s Word: “All the words of my mouth are just; none of them is crooked or perverse. To the discerning all of them are right; they are faultless to those who have knowledge” (Proverbs 8:8-9). Seeking discernment is a goal for all who desire to walk righteously: “Who is wise? He will realize these things. Who is discerning? He will understand them. The ways of the LORD are right; the righteous walk in them, but the rebellious stumble in them” (Hosea 14:9).
We are commanded to “hate what is evil; cling to what is good” (Romans 12:9). But, unless we have true discernment, how can we determine what is “evil” and what is “good”? In order to maintain the purity of the gospel, the church must distinguish truth from heresy. Wisdom also demands that we properly discriminate between what is “best” and what is merely “good.”
Discernment has many collateral benefits. “My son, preserve sound judgment and discernment, do not let them out of your sight; they will be life for you, an ornament to grace your neck. Then you will go on your way in safety, and your foot will not stumble; when you lie down, you will not be afraid; when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet” (Proverbs 21:24).
Just as Solomon sought discernment and wisdom (Proverbs 1:2; 1 Kings 3:9-12) to explore the handiwork of God (Ecclesiastes 1:13) and seek the meaning of life (Ecclesiastes 12:13), so should believers seek “the wisdom that comes from heaven” (James 3:17). We must study the Scriptures which are “able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 3:15). May our prayer be “I am your servant; give me discernment that I may understand your statutes” (Psalm 119:125).
Where is your faith, achillesquarrel? Faith? Do you understand the concept of “true faith” in God? I want you to read a post on faith and determine, for yourself, whether you really ever had faith to begin with. As a result you blame all of Christendom for your failures as a Christian.
You say “Christians want to force it down people’s throats and try to persuade their religion is the religion. Prove it. Show me evidence…without using faith or scripture. Can’t do it .” Islam might be a better illustration of religion being forced down the throats of mankind – but true Christianity does not. We always want to lead others to Christ and salvation through Christ, but that’s not a forced experience. Never, ever, confuse true Christians with those who profess to be Christians yet do not lead a Christian life.
“Show me evidence…without using faith or scripture.” The evidence is clearly within the very lives of true, Bible believing Christians. No, we are not sheltered from calamity, or trials, or even persecution….. for some, perhaps those like yourself, calamity, trials and persecution compels you to leave God; while to those, as myself, it brings me closer to God and His plan. Your evidence will only come when you fully submit yourself to God and His will (not your own). Then shall you experience the true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Then will you know true “righteous indignation” instead of mere human anger of no purpose whatsoever. Then you will experience discernment (truth from worldly lies) and the faith that comes to us all as that of Abraham, Job and Lot.
Then will you understand indignation (anger or annoyance provoked by what is perceived as unfair treatment) and Righteous Indignation (an excessive awareness of one’s own virtuousness and aligned with God’s anger towards sin in our lives).. The evidence you seek from me can not be found – it can only be found through your own experiences with the one True God, Jehovah and His Son, Yeshua (Jesus Christ). But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Matthew 6:33:
I ask that you not besmirch others of Christian faith but to call upon Christ and His mercy, love and forgiveness. That you might be renewed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and experience what Christ came for – your salvation through His death and resurrection; that you might have life and have life more abundantly.
Thank you for your comments and thoughts. They are greatly appreciated.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you and restore you. May He bring upon you the peace that is His. Amen
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Therefore belief in your god is based entirely on faith; largely built around acceptance of the veracity of the bible.
If parts of the bible can be shown beyond doubt to be erroneous would you conclude this is enough reason to at east doubt the god you believe in?
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Arkenaten;
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. Colossians 2:8. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4. And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. 2 Corinthians 1:22.
I believe this gives you your answer, Arkenaten.
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@ ark
You speak as if ‘faith’ is a defect, yet it is the sole principle in which you enter the darkroom, and try to draw the ‘unseen image’ from your camera…………an image clearly ‘not seen,’ yet you persist.
Faith is the principle in which all men live. It is verifiable, truthful, reliable.
You would be a fool to say the image in the camera does not exist………….there is that thing called evidence. Substance.
Don’t cheat yourself from receiving such free and full blessing. I have faith the sun will rise from the east tomorrow based on repeatable evidence.
“Faith’ is not as you suggest, a wishy washy ‘hope for this or that.’ The evidence abounds, and I dare say, you can’t leave home without it.
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Not for me. My general acceptance of the ”unseen image” is based on my (albeit limited) knowledge of how a camera works. And also an acceptance of human error so that if the camera doe not produce said image then it is either a manufacturing fault or …. more than likely, the fault of the user …me.
I certainly don’t put any stock in a supernatural entity guiding my hand and over-riding my shortcomings to ensure the photograph is spot on.
The type of faith you rely on is based on belief in a make-believe deity you have convinced yourself is real.
That type of faith is, I am sorry to say , for the ignorant , uneducated and morons.
Take your pick, CS.
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Oh for the love of faith ark! How those ‘unlearned and ignorant’ fishermen who were previously weak in the knees and fearful………..were said to have turned the world upside down. How they spoke with power and were then fearless.
Oh how Paul was called a madman………..oh how the Lord Christ was cited as a devil…………
Yeah, these inflammatory baseless slurs are irrelevant; heard them all before, gives the scriptures that much more credibility, so tkx for including us among the ranks of the esteemed.
And yes, you employ faith everyday, like it or not.
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Well said, colorstorm.
Thank you for your comments and truth.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you and yours.
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Nope. It is trust based on experience.
However, if you regard this as faith, then so be it.
But there ain’t no god involved.
Have a nice day …. fella.
🙂
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@ark
Faith is used in the sense of ‘belief’ or ‘devotion’. On the other hand, the word trust is used in the sense of ‘confidence’ and ‘reliance’. So, am I correct then that you have “no faith” in what you say; only a confidence or reliance? Confidence seems a lesser standard of which, to me, implies an apprehension. You see, Christians have the stronger of the two: we have both belief and devotion of which far exceeds mere confidence or reliance… both of which is built on experience as well.
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If you feel it necessary to point-score using semantics then feel free.
Your ”faith” is not my faith, as well you know.
Trying to be ”smart” is not very intelligent. In fact it makes you come across as an ignorant douche.
Ark
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Trying to be ”smart” is not very intelligent. One would think the same about you, Ark. And, as well, name calling is another of which you predominately always use as a tactic. In fact it makes you come across as an ignorant …. well, you know.
God bless, Arkenaten.
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@ark
Then by all means enlighten us with your “(albeit limited) knowledge” of your faith. After all it does take as much, or more, faith to believe something does not exist as it does belief that it does. So, since we are, as you say ” ignorant , uneducated and morons”, you will take this moment to give us the truth of your faith. And please, do not give (us) me the malarkey of “the Bible is erroneous” (cause you can’t prove that beyond doubt). And please do not give (us) me your opinions. Please do not give me what you have over heard, or mimic others, as others have said.
No sir, I want unaltered facts. I want to see unquestionable evidence from you “that there is no deity” anywhere within our universe or beyond. I don’t want what you think – “but hard core facts in evidence”. I want your [personal] research in full. Nothing short of that will suffice. Now if you can’t do that then I want you to confess right here that you are an “ignorant”, “uneducated”, “moron” and then shut the hell up.
Now you run along and gather all of your personal research [not someone else’s], and your facts and evidence…..
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We simply have to look at Genesis
The genome project, headed n=by Collins, demonstrates unequivocally that humans did not originate from a single ”first couple”, thus the Biblical tale of Adam and Eve is erroneous.
What else would you like to discuss?
Ark.
This is considered unadulterated established fact.
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A chronicle of the race to map and sequence the human genome that pitted the government against private industry, no holds barred.
For government read Francis Collins at the National Institutes of Health, three other major genome labs in the US, and one in the UK funded by the Wellcome Trust. Private industry was Celera, the firm headed by former NIH-er J. Craig Venter with the aim of beating the feds for the greater glory of mankind—and profit, too. Science writer Shreeve (The Neandertal Enigma, 1995, etc.) was given unlimited access to Celera throughout, so the text largely tells Venter’s story and abounds with verbatim dialogue and witty descriptions of the principals: how they dressed, the jokes they told, the Sturm und Drang that accompanied triumphs and setbacks. There’s plenty of high drama here, especially among the extraordinary geeks who wrote the computer programs. Celera’s “whole genome shotgun” approach, in which the total human DNA is blasted into a gazillion fragments and then sequenced and ordered, competed against the government’s “map first/sequence later” approach, in which DNA landmarks are mapped on each chromosome, followed by sequencing to fill in the gaps. Government scientists thought Venter was crazy and resented the privatizing of genes. Venter was so sure he would bag the human genome first that he turned to Collins at a celebrated meeting and suggested “you can do mouse.” Neither Collins nor Venter and his staff, particularly the business side, come off nobly. Indeed, it may shock the naïve to learn that government officials were capable of end-runs and leaks to demonize Venter. The race ended in a carefully staged tie with Clinton and (via satellite) Tony Blair presiding over a smiling Collins and an affable Venter in the White House. But the acrimony lives on. Celera morphed into a drug development company and fired Venter, who started a new firm. Stay tuned.
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I see. Don’t like the truth, so you delete the comments. Well, that speaks volumes doesn’t it?
Rank Cowardice
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@arkenaten
The truth is not in you. I have tolerated you since April 30th, 2013. I have given you every opportunity to show a touch of humanity towards me, my blog and to others. I can tolerate your abusiveness to me and to my blog; but I will no longer tolerate your abusiveness to my readers and others. And, since I hold the power of approval over you and your comments, here on my blog, I will exercise that authority over you as I deem fit and appropriate.
I was recently asked : ” Isn’t it problematic to refuse to acknowledge counter-arguments?” To which I replied: “No, I see nothing “constituting or presenting a problem or difficulty,” if that is what you mean by problematic, in refusing to acknowledge counter-arguments. Especially when they offer no sizable contribution, or relationship with, the theme or conversation. Nor do I find it problematic when “refusing counter-arguments when they are arbitrary or capricious. Nor is it problematic when a commentator uses abusive, offensive or derogatory remarks against others. And, I could probably go on but I believe you get the drift…”
Whatever your hatred towards God – I suggest you take it to Him. For no matter what it [your hatred] will no longer be tolerated here. I want it well understood, Arkenaten, no Christian here, including myself, hates you – but I think I speak for many – that we hate what you stand for. Much like we do not hate the sinner, but hate the sin.
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This is a logical post. On my blog, after recently posting evidence for Christianity in regards to the New Testament, I’ve been gaining many followers, and that is precisely because people are interested in the truth.
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Scientific, welcome to my blog and thank you for visiting today.
I am very pleased to learning you are gaining followers. People are learning and people are needy of the truth. The world is filled with deception and deceit; people are fed up with lies and false doctrine. I post a great deal on apostasy, false teachers and their false doctrine of men. I often post, or use the reference of the Church of Laodicea from Revelations.
Many Biblical Scholars concur that the Age of Laodicea came about around America’s Gilded Age 1870 – 1900. Looking historically at our Gilded Age there was a great prosperity generated by oil, banking, railroads and steel. The working class of that era was quite impoverished and it was not until after World War II that the working class began building individual wealth. Today people, even within the Church, are materialistic and worship the idol of material things. Mere trinkets. Man thinks himself rich and having become wealthy. God speaks to John of this very thing in Revelations.
In Revelation 3:15-20 God says “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[b] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Paul speaks to us from 2 Timothy 4:3-5 New King James Version (NKJV) 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
This is why I believe we are in the Age of Laodicea. The age before the Rapture. I encourage you to remain speaking the truth of God’s Word.
I do wish you and your ministry the greatest success. I also wish to again thank you for visiting altruistico and for your kind words. Both are greatly appreciated.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you and yours always.
Yours in Christ;
Michael
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Thanks for your response, I appreciate being able to see your view.
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You are quite welcome. Stay in touch, my friend.
Michael
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I’d appreciate it if you checked out my blog. I’m looking for new followers to expand my site, and I am definitely going to follow your own. If you check out my blog, that would be appreciated.
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I’m reading Faith, Philosophy and Science now…. I’m ahead of you. smiling.
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LOL thanks a lot my brother.
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You are quite welcome.
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Of course. As you know I have viewed your site and I find it very nice. I think I’d break some of the more lengthy articles into parts and make them a series. My opinion only based upon knowing most readers don’t appreciate the time being taken in order to view long articles overall.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you and yours always.
Yours in Christ;
Michael
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You are probably right, I should divide these longer posts into a series next time, and then publish that series all together. However, that extremely long article of mine on the authorship of the Gospels quadrupled my followers. If you like the stuff, I’d appreciate a follow, thanks and God Bless
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