The key to understanding this issue is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on us today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).
In place of the Old Testament law, we are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.
“This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). The Ten Commandments were essentially a summary of the entire Old Testament law. Nine of the Ten Commandments are clearly repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God, we will not be worshipping false gods or bowing down before idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we will not be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. The purpose of the Old Testament law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior (Romans 7:7-9; Galatians 3:24). The Old Testament law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we obey those two commands faithfully, we will be upholding all that God requires of us.
altruistico 
As duly noted by my friend, Makka:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Evidently, you are bound to the OT. To say otherwise is to fundamentally ignore the commandments of Jesus.
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Christ became the end of the Law by virtue of what He did on earth through His sinless life and His sacrifice on the cross. So, the Law no longer has any bearing over us because its demands have been fully met in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ who satisfied the righteous demands of the Law restores us into a pleasing relationship with God and keeps us there. No longer under the penalty of the Law, we now live under the law of grace in the love of God.
See my post @ http://wp.me/p26QNa-1Pe on why we, as Christians, are no longer under the law.
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Nonsense. Being the “culmination” of something doesn’t render that same thing obsolete. Did the writings of J. R. Tolkien or Albert Camus end all writing? Of course not, yet they could be considered the high-point of writing by some.
Jesus NEVER said move beyond the law of Moses. You’re just making things up… and that, sir, is lying. You are directly acting against Jesus’ specific wishes.
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It seems obvious you never took the time to read the other post of which I gave to you. Nor have I made any claim that Jesus said “move beyond the Law given to Moses.”
Like wise you should re-read my previous comment to you and then you will see, and hopefully understand, what my truest thoughts are on this topic.
How is it then “one can call another a liar when they have not even reviewed the evidence?”
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Apologies, no Reply option to your last comment.
I did indeed read the post you indicated. Where else do you think I got the Romans 10 “culmination” idea from? As I pointed out to you, your allusion is nonsense. Jesus is patently clear and painfully specific: “Obey Moses Law.”
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Your claim, “Jesus is patently clear and painfully specific: “Obey Moses Law.”” is without scripture reference(s). can you please site where, in the Bible, Jesus recites this?
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Certainly
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
Here’s some more:
“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 “Whoever curses father or mother shall die” (Mark 7:10 NAB)
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)
“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,…” (John 1:17).
“…the scripture cannot be broken.” –Jesus Christ, John 10:35
That, sir, is patently clear and painfully specific: Obey Moses Law.
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Romans 3:18-30
New King James Version (NKJV)
18
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[a]
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
God’s Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[b] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Boasting Excluded
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
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I gave you direct quotes by Jesus. You give me Romans. I think you know which takes precedence here.
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And BTW, Romans 13:1-7 says quite clearly that Christians are to submit to the law and regard it as the institution of God.
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All I am saying, and have said throughout is that, with Christ we are under a new covenant. We are no longer under the old law given by God to the Hebrews. In Romans, Paul writes of the law that was given to the Hebrew people through Moses. He argues in Romans that before Jesus it was through the law alone that we could find righteousness. Now that Jesus has come we can find righteousness in him not just in the law. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Romans 3:21 (KJV)
In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul provides some pretty specific instructions about hair length. Similarly, Leviticus 19:28 commands, “Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.” Do these commands still apply today? Can someone worship Jesus just as well with long hair, earrings or tattoos?
It’s important to begin by understanding the difference between a cultural custom and a law. Culture, customs and societies change, but God and His laws do not. However, that does not mean we can ignore ancient, biblical commandments simply because they apply to a culture which existed long ago and far away. Underneath every custom or culturally accepted practice which we are commanded to follow, there lies some unchanging truth or principle. Our challenge is to uncover that law or principle and apply it to a modern society. In the example of 1 Corinthians, maintaining hair short for men and long hair for women is a cultural custom, but there is nevertheless some deep truth of God’s law which Paul is trying to express in this teaching. Whatever that truth is, we need to get to the bottom of it and ensure that we are faithfully following it.
In almost every case, when Paul or another apostle commands us to obey some cultural custom, the goal is to demonstrate to the world that we are children of God and to distance ourselves from the pagans. This was a very serious issue in the 1st century. Many new Christians had been gentiles or pagans and the early Church leaders wanted to ensure that they did not slip back into their old ways. It was also important that they did not have any kind of external appearance which made people think that they were still worshiping their old idols. This is the main reason for the decree that men should not have long hair, tattoos, or body piercings. These were things the pagans did, so any Christians who looked that way might cause others to be concerned.
That principle remains the same thousands of years later. Rightly or wrongly, people judge by appearances. As Christians, we need to avoid doing anything that would cause others to be uncomfortable with the way we look, or would cause them to fail to recognize us as followers of Christ. This is particularly true when we are witnessing to non-Christians.
A follower of Christ may deliver the Gospel very well with massive tattoos, long hair, and a nose ring. Unfortunately, with this appearance, some people may never be able to look past the image and focus on the message. They may assume that he could be a criminal or something worse, and this could be a serious obstacle in leading them to Jesus.
For this reason, we should avoid extremes. God commands us to look the part of His children, respect our bodies and understand that others will judge us by our appearance. We need to present an image which clearly sets us apart from the rest of the world.
The essence of the commandments given to us by Paul and Moses thousands of years ago still apply today even though the cultural specifics have changed. We must not give our fellow Christians a reason to think we have slipped into “pagan” ways. Likewise, we must not give unbelievers any reason to judge us and reject us before we have had a chance to present the Good News.
As with all things, we must approach this teaching with a healthy dose of common sense and Spirit-led guidance. If you have a tiny, inconspicuous tattoo or wear your hair a little longer or shorter than Paul commands, spend some contemplative time in prayer seeking what God would have you do about this issue, if anything. On the other hand, you absolutely must pause, pray and seriously seek to understand God’s will before getting a new tattoo. You can be certain that if your appearance in any way presents an obstacle to someone knowing you are a Christian, or hinders you from leading them to Christ, then you have an obligation to make the right choice.
The law only holds power over those who are under it. Christians, however, aren’t saved by following the law–the law rather serves as a guide by which they can identify the sin in their lives. How are we justified before God? Not by following the law–we’re not even capable of obeying the law perfectly. Rather, we are justified through faith in God. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28
What’s the point of God’s law? It can be summed up in one phrase: love God and love your neighbor. If you’re doing those two things, you’re on the right track. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” [Galatians 5:14]
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What shall the difference be then between your quoting Jesus and Romans teaching Christ’s words? In Romans Paul teaches the distinct differences between what the Old Covenant held and what the new Covenant reveals……
The Old Testament contains many laws and rules, the most famous being the Ten Commandments. But Jesus said that all of those rules boiled down to two things: love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. If our adherence to rules or commandments isn’t producing these two things, we’ve missed the entire point.
Here are some further illustrations, from the New Testament, supportive of what I am saying:
1: Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thy self. [Matthew 22:36-40]
Following the law can never justify us before God. But following Jesus brings the justification that legalism can never offer.
2: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. [Acts 13:39 (KJV)]
Although we all deserve to be condemned for our sins, this passage reassures us that for anyone who believes in Jesus, there is no condemnation at all. Sin has lost its grip on our lives, and the law cannot condemn us.
3:There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [Romans 8:1-2]
Righteousness through faith is one of the core teachings of Christianity. This passage explains the relationship between righteousness and the law, and shows that it is not the law which produces righteousness, but faith in Jesus Christ.
4: What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? [Romans 3:1-31]
This passage addresses questions raised by Jewish and other believers concerning the law–is it enough to obey God’s law? We’re told that righteousness (and our identity as believers) is not defined merely by adherence to an outward law, but by the condition of one’s heart.
5: Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
One of the paradoxes of the Christian life is that we find true freedom when we surrender our lives to God’s will. When we seek out God’s will and devote ourselves to it, we find that sin and the law lose their grip on us and we are finally free to be fully human.
6: And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed. And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved. My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have…[Psalm 119:45-48 (KJV)“
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you.
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(Hope this goes under your last comment)
Who cares about Paul!? He never met Jesus. He never spoke to him. Jesus was, however, quite clear about the matter: obey the law of Moses. You, rather oddly, are simply ignoring Jesus commandments.
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Obviously you are one of those filled with pride in yourself and must “be always right.” Well, go on then because it seriously appears you aren’t reading what I am writing or you fail to be able to understand.
The very fact is this: Neither I, nor any true Christian, is under the Law. Period. If you want to be a legalist – do so, but your not a Christian believer as a Legalist….. sorry, just more truth you’ll probably never understand or read.
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You “believe” you’re not under the law, but you are all too aware that Jesus said you were. You are following the directions of a man, Paul, who never spoke to Jesus. Fine, if being a “True Christian” to you is following Paul while ignoring Jesus then so be it. It’s your choice.
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Don’t put words in my mouth….. Paul was a teacher of Christ and of Christ Church. Another thing, I do not listen to, nor will I be a follower of, legalists. Especially those who profess to be a Christian, as yourself, and know so little of Christianity.
Nor will I allow, someone as yourself, to come to my site and spread false beliefs and witness to those who will come to my blog site to learn of God, Christ and the Scriptures. I will not be unequally yoked to Legalists or Unbelievers…..
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I’m an atheist, which means I probably know the bible far better than you.
Anyway, it’s all a rather silly exercise as even the majority of Jewish Rabbis today openly admit Moses was a fictional character. Even Orthodox Rabbis are starting to admit it! Christians should perhaps try to catch up with where the Rabbis are on the historical nature of the Tanakh.
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There are many false prophets. Jews, for centuries now, have not accepted the “life and claims of Jesus”. This is nothing new.
Your claim of “probably knowing the bible better than me,” based upon the fact (or fiction) that you are an Atheist is highly unlikely. Though you may know the bible, as many atheists were once Christians, it does not elevate you into the authority class. After all I did win the debate whole heartedly….. smiling…… especially since, in the end, all you had to resort to was “you’re under the law”. When I clearly showed Christians were not… end of argument, John…….. smiling.
Wee available to do it again someday. Hope you’re up to it…Lol! I know I will be.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you…
Yours in Christ;
Michael
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You “won” the debate? Were we even having one? If we were it’s quite clear i fell on the side of Jesus and you picked up the flag of a man, Paul. It would seem by that that i was the “True” champion of Jesus, not you.
I hope you do look into current Jewish thought. They really do openly admit there was no Abraham, no Moses, no Exodus, and no Conquest. The do so because they can’t ignore the overwhelming evidence. Perhaps Christians will one day be adult enough to also face the facts.
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Would you settle for it was an even draw? smiling.
Yes, you were in there on His side. Can’t deny that….. Which, by the way, leads me to think you’re agnostic opposed to atheist…. any possibility there? Either way it’s fine. I accept you for you, John……
Yes, I will check into that. Not heard anything, to speak on, concerning the rabbinical modern view. Thanks for the heads up..
Have a good one my friend.
And, God bless.
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A draw it is!
I was Catholic, Catholic schooling (Carmelite nuns then Augustinian priests), but faith crumbled tremendously easily once I looked at it all with a curious eye.
If you are interested in hearing the views of Rabbis then I have a post which took me nearly three months to research. It’s balanced, but does lay it out as it is. Link below. Be keen to hear your views on it.
http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2013/11/18/of-course-what-you-say-is-true-but-we-should-not-say-it-publically-13/
All the best
J
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Thanks john. I will take the necessary time in order to review it’s content. I can not promise when I will get back to you on it, however, having said that I can promise I will.
I understand your past. I do not, myself, endorse Catholicism. I do not believe in it’s dogma and indoctrination. Nor in the essential facts of a Vicar, Priest as Father/savior and the list goes on and on.
I can not believe, other than from the council of Trent, that they have the audacity to instruct people that the priest can, through confession to him, get you saved. It is, to me, so very wrong and totally misleading.
Personally, I am non-denominational…… and like it as such. I was once told, by a friend who happened to be Methodist, “Michael, the nice thing about being non-denominational is that you can say whatever you feel, about any religion or denomination, without offending yourself.” Seems he’s right. Lol!
God bless, my friend;
Michael
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That said, do take care. I wish you only the best
John
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Thank you, John. And I the same for you.
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We can disagree on theology and the existence of the gods, but we should never disagree on our humanity, right? 🙂
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You are so right……. smiling
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I here completely disagree with you; Jesus was a Jew and followed the law given by Moses by the One-True-God; so if a Christian followes Jesus then he cannot go against the core teachings of Moses that are the same core teachings of Jesus; he was a perfect man of One-True-God and did not literally claim to be a god or son of god.
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Spot on,. Paarsurry. The Muslim rocks!
Now if only we could do something about that idiot, Mohammed?
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@ Arkenaten
What is your question? If you could elaborate in soft language.
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If I am paraphrasing your comment correctly before making my reply to it…..
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Don’t get you; please elaborate.
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There is no direct question.It was more rhetorical.
I was acknowledging your take on this blog re Jesus being simply a Jew, an eschatological prophet who was espousing the Law of Moses. And when one acknowledges that Moses, like all the Pentateuch is a work of fiction, then maybe one could apply a similar rationale to your prophet, that he was either misguided or a liar.
I shall opt for misguided, as I am in a good mood and it is a pleasant Tuesday Afternoon.
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I also wish to apologize to you for the lateness of my response. I appeal to your forgiveness.
You state: (in relevant part) ” he was a perfect man of One-True-God and did not literally claim to be a god or son of god.”
The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).
John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!
To see more on this subject I invite you to view “Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?” Here is the link. http://wp.me/p26QNa-2jm I hope this will assist you in your quest for truth, paarsurrey.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you.
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@altruistico Jan 28, 8:29 am
“The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.”
If Jesus had been a god; he would have definitely claimed precisely “I am God”. From whom he was afraid of saying these words if he would have been a god?
God is an icon of power not of weakness.
This is sheerly against divinity.
Jesus’ divinity was invented by Paul.
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i have enjoyed reading the dialog that has gone on in the comments. It is clear that each man has their own beliefs. I, however, side with John on this matter. As an Atheist, I feel that everyone has the right to believe anything they wish until they start trying to shove those beliefs down everyone’s throats. Concerning all that was said in this comment section I would like to add some food for thought. What most Christians fail to realize is that they do not believe in Jesus Christ as they think they do. In fact, their beliefs lie in words written over a period of 1500 years by sinful man who were not eye witnesses of Jesus. They wrote what was passed down orally through the years. They were basically playing the game ‘Telephone’. We have no way of knowing what was added or lost through all the different translations. The only proof they have is what is written in the Bible. They think it’s true because the Bible says it is. The problem with this is that you cannot prove the Bible with the Bible. Their beliefs lie in the fact that someone wrote something on papyrus and passed it down over the centuries telling people it was true.
Now, they will tell you that they know Jesus exists because of their personal experience. What they fail to realize is that their personal experience is not evidence. Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence and they can not prove this evidence outside of what the Bible claims.
They will also tell you that they are under the ‘new’ law and that the OT is no longer valid. I would ask them about Malachi 3:6 that says God never changes. Most Christians teach that God never changes and that he is the same yesterday, today and for all eternity. If it is true that God never changes, that means he still expects us to kill our unruly teenagers and force rape victims to marry their rapist but only after the rapist pays her father 50 shekels of silver (Duet. 22:28) . I guess women do have a price in the eyes of God.
We already know that apologist will twist words and add new meanings to words to make them fit their beliefs because they know how damaging the actual words are when presented to others. Take for example Luke14:26 that says “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple” they will tell you that Jesus didn’t really mean ‘hate’ even thought the actual word HATE appears in the passage. I will stop here for now and I look forward to any argument one can give to my comment.
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Once again I apologize, noreligionrequired, for my tardiness in giving you a response.
I am glad you have enjoyed the open dialog between john zande and myself. I also wish to commend you on your choice of wording, having called it a “dialog” between us and not as others suggest; an argument of sorts. Certainly there is nothing wrong with individuals, or groups for that matter, holding healthy discourse on matters of importance. With that I will continue with our discourse of which you present.
I would like, if I may, starting with your last line which says the following: “I will stop here for now and I look forward to any argument one can give to my comment.” I reiterate I will not argue, but, as you have said, present an open dialog between two reasonable persons as ourselves.
Your comment: ” As an Atheist, I feel that everyone has the right to believe anything they wish until they start trying to shove those beliefs down everyone’s throats.”
To this comment I have to admit I fully agree. I agree with your notion that there is a sphere of privacy, and of right, everyone enjoys and should be at liberty to fully enjoy or be free from others compelling or imposing or infringement upon them . In essence, I believe, you have a right and a sphere of privacy associated with your belief, or non-belief, in God. I may not agree with your belief, or lack thereof, but I fully support your right to posses it, to freely exercise it and to be free from uninvited intrusion. Most Christians would probably agree with these statements.
Atheism is a religion as specifically identified by the United States Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals. Atheist have their own churches now and openly practice their beliefs which consist of self harmony, love and “freedom of choice and more.” Much like their counterpart, Christianity.
However, many Atheists do not share in this “right of privacy or freedom of Liberty such as choice, assembly or ordered liberty generally.” Instead, they have imposed their will upon Christians by and through having “nativity scenes” removed from public places, the “Ten Commandments” removed from public places, removal of “prayer from schools”, “assisting Legislators in the promotion of hate crimes and opposition to Freedom of Speech”.
Unfortunately, this list can be lengthened; but suffices for this dialog and discourse.
The question then becomes “who is shoving what down whose throats?” I know of no case where Christianity has opposed Atheists their right to have churches, assembly freely or belief in “self harmony,” “love” and/or “their expression freely thereof.”
Yes, it is true that we, as Christians, have both challenged and appealed court decisions whereas Atheists have sought the removal of those things as “the Ten Commands or “Pray from our schools” and “public arenas”.” But this is not the same as “shoving something down the throats of others.” It is in defense of our rights under a Constitutional form of Government.
Your next comment: “What most Christians fail to realize is that they do not believe in Jesus Christ as they think they do. In fact, their beliefs lie in words written over a period of 1500 years by sinful man who were not eye witnesses of Jesus. They wrote what was passed down orally through the years. They were basically playing the game ‘Telephone’. We have no way of knowing what was added or lost through all the different translations. The only proof they have is what is written in the Bible. They think it’s true because the Bible says it is. The problem with this is that you cannot prove the Bible with the Bible.”
It seems what you elude to is “We, as Christians, can not have faith in Christ as our Messiah and Savior because the Bible can not support itself.” Am I making a fair assessment as to what it is you are saying? If so, please let me know so we can continue or conversation. I will leave it here until hearing from you once again, noreligionrequired.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you and yours.
Michael
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Michael thank you for your response. I completely agree that two people can have a respectful conversation about their opposing views. As you can imagine there are some views you raised that I agree and disagree with. I do find it very disappointing that the United States Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals does not understand Atheism. I can make this statement because had they truly understood Atheism they would’ve never called Atheism a religion. Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color. People are so quick to call Atheism a religion because we, like everyone else, enjoy having a sense of community. I see you mentioned that we have churches and this appears to be your justification of calling Atheism a religion. As an Atheist I have no holy book, no deity to answer to or impress and no promised after-life. So it seem crazy to me to call Atheism a religion.
As an Atheist, I have no problem with you displaying the Ten Commandments or a nativity scene. My problem begins when the Ten Commandments and a nativity scene are displayed on government property; city hall, court house, and any other government building. If you were to display them in your front yard I would never have a problem with it, in fact if we awoke tomorrow and Congress passed a law saying it is unlawful to display any Christian symbols in public, I would be standing right next you with a picket sign demanding your rights to Freedom of Expression and Freedom of Religion. I have not problem with anyone believing in a God or God’s, The only thing I ask is that Christians leave their God in their homes and in their churches and out of the voting booth. We are a nation of MANY different religions and I do not think that Christians should force others to live according to their Christian beliefs.
You mention that Atheist are having nativity scenes and prayers removed from schools. Allow me to point out that prayer has not been removed from school. As long as there are tests in school there will be prayers in school. However, what has been removed is allowing teachers to LEAD prayer in school. If teachers are going to lead prayer in school they should be required to say the prayers of Islam, Hindu, Buddhist, Scientology, Taoist, Wicca and any other religion followed in this country.
I think it is fair to say that if a child came home to their Christian parents and told mom and dad that their teacher was praying to Allah, Krishna or Ganesha, the parents would be in the principals office the very next morning demanding the teacher be terminated. Yet, if the teacher is saying a Christian prayer it’s no big deal. I’m unfamiliar with Atheist assisting in hate crimes so I can not comment. Understanding that Atheists like Christians come in every size, shape and form I cannot speak for every Atheist in our country, but i can speak for one in particular…ME.
Even though I am a self professed Atheist, that does not mean that I am filled with hatred toward those who oppose my views on religion. In fact, Christians have called me the antichrist, a Satan worshiper, I have been told I should be hanged, beheaded even castrated so that I would never poison the Earth by producing Satan’s spawn and many others things that I will not say here. The most hatred I have ever experienced in my life has come from the mouths of Christians when they find out that I am an Atheist. Atheist are, without a doubt, the most hated people in this country and this truly saddens me. Unfortunately people refuse to see the man. They only see my non-belief in their God and in their mind that makes me their enemy. They use Matthew 12:30 to justify their hatred. For those of you are reading this conversation and are unfamiliar, Matthew 12:30 is Jesus saying “He that is not with me is against me.”
In closing, I would never make the statement that Christians cannot have faith in Jesus as their Messiah. What I would say is that faith is all you have. Outside the Bible and your personal feelings and experiences, there is no evidence to substantiate the actual existence of Jesus Christ. All that you have to prove Jesus’ actual existence is what anonymous authors wrote down over a thousand years ago and passed down as truth. Just because multiple people claim something is true, doesn’t actually make it true. Your faith is in the people who edited those stories, in the anonymous people who translated those words to your language and in the man at church who interprets those stories for you. I would say your faith is in man. Of course I don’t expect you to agree but I would ask you to give it consideration.
i look forward to reading your response.
noreligionrequired.wordpress.com
http://www.facebook.com/noreligionreq
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Thank you, noreligionrequired for your kindness and honesty. Both are greatly appreciated.
Towards your response, concerning the United States 7th Circuit Court of Appeal’s decision, concerning the “establishment of Atheism as a Religion,” I have no doubt your conviction is valid based upon the reasons, or casual effects, you have given. However we both realize the court’s do not often base determinations upon the private citizens view or opinion collectively. But rather interpretation of Constitutional Law. Even that can be, and often is, in non-compliance thereof.
To give you a heads up; tomorrow I will be a posting an article entitled “Atheism is a Religion too” . In the post is a direct link to the case from the 7th Circuit. Given you, and others, from both sides opportunity to review the fact finding causes for their decision. I felt it fair to do so. I trust you will agree.
Your comment: ” I have not problem with anyone believing in a God or God’s, The only thing I ask is that Christians leave their God in their homes and in their churches and out of the voting booth. We are a nation of MANY different religions and I do not think that Christians should force others to live according to their Christian beliefs.”
It may surprise you, and others, I agree. Firstly: as a true believer in the Constitution I have to support the “Establishment Clause” and I am a respecter of the ideology that a “government may not endorse one religion over another.” However, I do not support the notion that “a person might be arrested for speaking, in a public forum, his or her personal belief in a specific religion or belief system. Or, the lack thereof as pertaining to “Atheism.”
It becomes quite complicated when one adds the individuals rights as “a sphere of privacy, freedom of speech and assembly.” Where does one’s freedom of speech and assembly begin to impose properly upon another’s sphere of privacy or being free from such topical imposition as “religion, abortion, or the promotion of Sharia Law over Constitutional Law (for that matter)?” The list could become exhaustive if allowed to be carried to it’s most logical degree.
It is extremely ironic that since the decision by the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals decision in Kaufman (i.e. establishing “Atheism as a Religion – 2005”) the Court’s have violated the very substance of “the Establishment Clause” (as one example) in their decisions upholding what might be construed as “Atheistic concerns over the Christian belief.” Yet, government is not to take sides when it renders it’s decision. The same can be, and ought to be, associated with Legislators and the laws they enact.
I want you to know I appreciate your stance on being supportive in the event I were personally persecuted…..
Your comment: “Christians have called me the antichrist, a Satan worshiper, I have been told I should be hanged, beheaded even castrated so that I would never poison the Earth by producing Satan’s spawn and many others things that I will not say here. The most hatred I have ever experienced in my life has come from the mouths of Christians when they find out that I am an Atheist.”
I want to establish with you this one solemn fact. Those who persecute you, call you names or otherwise threaten you, are not Christian . They may profess Christianity as their core belief – but, by their actions, MOCK the very God I worship and believe in. And I can say that because the bible teaches us that “we are known by our fruits.” No true believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob would EVER threaten, or say, “you should be hung for your belief or lack thereof.”
My God is a god of Love. in fact, Christ commands of us to “Love the Lord thy God with all of our very being (paraphrased)” and His second greatest commandment rest in “Loving our neighbor as Ourselves.” No true Christian can serve two masters – as serving God – and – serving “hatred.” for he will learn to love one and despise the other. There is great truth in this and I hope you understand it and believe it.
I have chastised , and I will continue to chastise, ‘professing Christians’ on their actions…. the Bible gives me authority to do so. For the bible is good for educating, and perhaps more appropriately, rebuking. Rebuking the very “professed Christian who, by word or deed, would say such as what has been said to you and Atheist generally.” My heart goes out to all of you who have, in the name of Christendom (or the professed and misused name of Christendom) suffered such abuse. I ask you to find it within your heart to forgive them….. albeit hard to do…. If an online professing Christian does this again, please bring it to my attention. I assure you I will have (biblical) words for them…
I have to go now, noreligionrequired, as I have to get ready for work……
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you always…
Michael
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Michael, I thank you for your response. Even though I understand the court of appeals wanting to call Atheism a religion, I am fully support the Separation of Church and State and feel that a court should not decide whether or not something should can characterized a religion and I definitely think is wrong them to make their decision without taking the consideration of those who proudly profess to be an Atheist. Why does a court have to decide whether or not Atheism is a religion? I believe it is because they do not in any way understand Atheism. I am not, nor will I ever be a part of a religion. All one has to do is look at the name I post under to see the truth in that. It is my opinion that they classified Atheism as a religion because they do not know what else to classify us under. Not to mention it gives theist a nice warm feeling.
As far as the people who see me as a Satan worshiper and get great joy placing labels upon me, I have no reason to not forgive them. Truth be told, I feel really sorry for them. I am perfectly comfortable with who I am as a person and in my non-belief. They are the ones who have to deal with their hatred. I take everything that everyone says to me with a grain of salt. I do not let someone’s ignorance bother me. I do not expect everyone to agree with my views and I’m certainly not going to condemn them for disagreeing.
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To give you the fastest possible answer to your question: “Why does a court have to decide whether or not Atheism is a religion?” Because someone, who claimed he/she was an Atheist wanted a special privilege.” It’s as simple as that, my friend.
What is bad for you, and others like you, is that you can not opt out of it. For example; a Christian can opt out of being a Christian by merely saying “I no long am a Christian, but rather, I am now an Agnostic or Atheist.” A Christian not only could opt out of Christendom and have a place (other religion) to go to… Where as, if am Atheist wishes to opt out of the Atheist Religion, where can they go? What can they revert to?
One as yourself, who does not believe in a god, one as yourself who does not support (any) religion is stuck. for regardless what you (and others as yourself) say you’ll always and forever be viewed as belonging to a “Religion”…. You are, as the result of another, always and forever stigmatized. In essence you, and those as yourself, can no long claim “I do not affiliate myself to any religion, I do not believe in religion or; as you have so clearly stated ” I am not, nor will I ever be a part of a religion.”
I am so proud of you for being able to “forgive” those who wantonly set out to hurt you. It takes a big man to make such a fact part of your daily life. And, I must confess, there are those professing Christians who are unable to do as you have done and what you are doing. I commend you for forgiving others and hope that you will continue to do so….. remembering always “one can not be forgiven if he/she can not forgive others.”
God bless;
Your Friend;
Michael
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Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew.
The only religious ceremony Jesus followed was Jewish.
The only religious doctrine he followed was Jewish
The only religious Law he considered valid was the Law of Moses.
Christians follow the “law” of Paul, who cites authority from a delusional vision he had possibly during an epileptic seizure.
I don’t know if there is any form of point scoring during such religious ”debates” but John handed you your arse on a plate.
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Yes he did! I would go to battle with John Zande any day of the week!
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I must warn you he is Australian. Pre-Battle vaccinations might be required. 😉
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I am reminded of “pride comes before a fall.” smiling.. John, I must confess, is quite knowledgeable in the Bible…. I might even add “a formidable adversary.” One, I hope, will one day return to his Christian roots and become again an advocate for Christ. To this end I pray……
I was unaware john was Australian…. Does this make him a “bloke?” smiling…..
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you and yours always, Arkenaten…
Thank you for your comment.
Michael
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John actually studies more than the back of his cornflakes packet. Surprising, I know. But there you go.
I suspect the only ”Christian roots” he may return to would be those that promoted some form of beer.
As for being an advocado for Christ; I feel there are enough misguided twits pumping lies and false promises without John adding to the mix.
Thank you for your kind thoughts. It is not everyday someone offers me felicitations and benign wishes from a narrative construct.
I suppose if you were to write, ”May Santa Claus watch over you,” and others were to perchance upon your blog and read the comment they would probably think you were stark raving bonkers.
Fortunately, your Sky Daddy, the inimitable Yahweh, is believed by enough nutters that you can get away with it.
May Thor watch over you and also Blind Io, and Anoia.
And may your loins never have to be girded or you run out of toilet paper while sitting on the loo.
Le Ark.
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You’re welcome. Additionally I wish to thank you for your vast comment. Although you mock me, I am not set back by this. In fact, I wish to thank you for this as well; for you have somewhat proven what Christ has said and the bible reveals: “Do not be surprised if the world hates you for they first hated me.”
They made a mockery of Jesus as well. Especially at His trial. So, whether my expression comes from self or from God, it is genuinely given.
Again, God bless;
Michael
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First,let me dispel that notion straight away.
I hate nothing. Hate is for fools. A wasted emotion.
You blog in an open forum. You must expect interaction from all quarters.
If you wish your blog only to be an echo chamber then to my mind this rather negates the reason for blogging.
Religious inculcation of the level you have obviously been subject to is like an addiction and like every addict, the way out begins with you.
What you consider the truth does not alter what IS the truth.
You refer to characters such as Yeshua as real. How do you know? Truly. Have you established this yourself from study…across all fields, or are you merely parroting what you have been brought up to believe?
If you were able to suspend faith for a short while you might be able to look at religion objectively.
Perhaps read a good history of the Church to begin with?
Or read works by Eusebius.
In the meantime, I would merely wish that you do not expose any young children to your beliefs. They deserve to find their own feet in life without having to contend with the burden of religion.
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yes, of course, altruistico is an open forum and all are welcome to the extent they do not offend others through usage of derogatory remarks or statements. I can not condone others to offend you (you meaning anyone and also; you as the person you are).
Are you referring then to The writings of Eusebius, the Bishop of Caesarea (also called Eusebius Pamphylius).
If so, he provides a unique study in the beginning of the Church. He is called the father of Church History due to his extensive writings on the subject. These writings are still widely published and read. However, due to the fact Eusebius lived from 260-340 A.D., some of his writings are not so readily available; perhaps as many as 9 of which are currently translated into English.
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Yes. The very same.He is also on record stating it is perfectly acceptable to lie if it furthers the aims of the church. I am sure you are aware of this?
Though your reply did not address the issue concerning children, nor a direct response concerning your knowledge of Yeshua .
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Oh, my reply will be coming. Rest assured of that. I had not communicated as to children or my knowledge of Yeshua due to my need to know whether, or not, you were indeed referring to Eusebius.
I believe, and correct me if I am wrong, but with over 1,200 posts on the topic of Christianity, Christ and God, I would think you have your answer as to my position of Yeshua (Christ the Messiah).
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Being new to your blog it will take me a while to read all 1200 posts.Do you think you could summarize in a paragraph or two, a la Nicene Creed?
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Hahaha! I think as arch has put it, we stop calling them Christians for they aren’t. We can call the religion Paulinity as he suggested and the adherents Paulines
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I apologize to you, Makagutu, for taking so long before making my reply or response. However, in your comment you neglected to imply whether you meant I was Pauline from a Christian perspective or Pauline from having a belief in the Pauline Epistles? Perhaps you were unaware there were two different train of thought, or school, on this subject. I hope the posts help you, and others, in your study and future comments on this subject.
If there is anything else I can do to assist your journey to discover faith, please, do not hesitate to ask. I will help wherever possible.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you.
Yours in Christ;
Michael
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Michael, if you read my comment, my meaning is clear. Just so you know, I did read the post you wrote trying to clarify the issue.
Am not on a journey of faith so I don’t need your help in that regard but whenever I need your help for something else, be sure I will attempt to reach you.
MAy your god bless you.
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I understand and accept your words. be assured I stand ready to assist you wherever I am able… at least to give my all in such matters and regard.
I had to smile when reading “May your god bless you.” It brought me great joy and peace; for that I truly thank you.
Your Friend;
Michael
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